Tuesday, November 21, 2006

This is How Date Rape Happens

Before everyone attacks me for being that guy who blames the victim, before you automatically assume that I am that guy saying “she was asking for it,” before I lose what’s left of my female audience after the post on fat girls, let me just come out and say that I am 100% against date rape. I believe that no means no and when a girl says “I can’t have sex with you,” you should stop right there and respect her wishes. Go to sleep, go to the bathroom to finish yourself off, or go home, but accept the fact that it ain’t gonna happen that night. I try to apply this method during drunken, random hook-ups, but quite often a funny thing happens: After she says no, I’m not the one who keeps going.

Allow me to explain. Say I bring a girl home and we are both pretty wasted and I start trying to undo her pants. She says “No, I can’t.” Now, drunk, I admit I may from time to time ask why and proceed to nibble on her earlobe and kiss her neck seeing how far I can get. But should it become rather clear that her pants will not be making a crumpled appearance on my bedroom floor, I stop. I mean, I look at her, say “Okay,” and roll over to my side of the bed. Night over. But here’s where a lot of girls do some totally irrational shit that I really don’t understand.

As I am rolling off of said girl, still mostly clothed, and try to go to sleep she will say something like “But you know, I really want to.” WHAT!? You WANT to? Didn’t you just tell me you couldn’t? Why are you saying this now that my hands aren’t 6 inches from the promised land? So inevitably I take this as a sign that she wants sex and get back on top until, again, she says, “No, no, I can’t.” So again I stop and roll over and attempt to sleep since the sun is coming up and I have to be at work in two hours. But then a voice form the other side of the bed: “Wait, why are you being like that?” LIKE WHAT?! You said no. I’m stopping. Isn’t that what a guy is supposed to do when you say no? Stop trying to have sex with you? This happens over and over until finally she says “Do you have a condom?” and we proceed to get down to business. In essence, this girl just told me “No” multiple times, I tried to stop, and she kept pushing the issue until she said “yes.” Now, I don’t think any girl in this situation would cry “rape” but the problem is that not every girl acts like this.

Say that exact scenario plays out for a guy a dozen times or so then he gets to a girl who really does mean no when she says it. Being the morally upright and hypersensitive to rejection guy that I am, I’m still going to stop. But you think every guy thinks like me? You think every dipshit Neanderthal frat boy out there is going to stop when he has basically been conditioned to think “No,” means “Keep trying and eventually I’ll say yes?” Unfortunately, many of them won’t. And that, my friends, is when date rape happens.

Now, is it still the guy’s fault for not stopping when he hears “no?” Of course it is, that’s why I always stop when a girl says she’s not going to do it. But ladies, if you are going to tell a guy to stop you’d better be prepared to stop too. Like fully stop. Like no more kissing, no cuddling, no caressing. Like okay, we’re done, we’re going to sleep. If you don’t you are sending the wrong message. So I have to ask, and maybe some of you can fill me in on this, why do a lot of you insist on telling us you still WANT to have sex even after you say “I can’t” (and not “I don’t want to” but “I can’t”). Is it because you need to feel like we care about you or are attracted to you before you consent? Is it because you want more attention or more foreplay? Is it because you have some sick desire to be dominated and coerced into sex (not an uncommon fetish, actually)? Is it because you want us to want it more than you do? Or, and here’s my guess, is it because you don’t’ want to feel like a “slut” for doing it and can later go back and say “Well, he just kept trying so I finally said yes.”

To be honest, I’m really not as concerned with why girls do this as I am with the negative ramifications it may hold for a man’s future sexual partners. Whatever your motivations are in saying “no” but meaning “yes,” be aware that you may be setting some poor future girl up for a very unfortunate situation. My advice is if you are in bed with a stranger (rape fantasy role playing stuff is different, obviously) and you want to fuck him, just go ahead and do it without first feigning some sort of resistance. It’s really not going to make the end result any different. Similarly, if you truly don’t want to have sex with the guy? Tell him no and stop. And let him stop. You may want to keep making out or fondling or whatever it is you are doing, but it gives a very mixed signal. And in situations such as this, that is the worst thing you can possibly do.

40 Comments:

At 2:10 PM, Blogger minijonb said...

This is why how well a girl communicates (and talks dirty) is just as sexy as how she looks.

 
At 2:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dade: the word that describes your behavior in this hypothetical is simple. You're a mensch.

Back when I was single, I remember a number of occasions like the hypothetical you offer. After the first time, I decided on a strategy. It served me well until I got married.

It had two steps:

1) after the first no, then yes, I got on my back and left it up to her to climb on or not. Sometimes we went forward and sometimes we didn't. But it's hard to accuse a guy of pressuring you, or worse, if he's on his back and he's receiving whatever snuggling, cuddling, foreplay you want to intiate.

If we went through more than two rounds of no, yes, no, yes, at the third no I flipped onto my stomach.

2) the next morning, regardless of how the evening worked out, I wrote last nite's partner off for any future canoodling. She violates one of the universe's few absolute truths: never fuck any girl crazier than you are.

 
At 2:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, this is a real hypothetical, not an O.J.-hypothetical, right?

 
At 2:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what i want to know is say i'm "taking one for the team" and i say "no, i can't" & the guy asks why. i say i'm on the rag and he doesn't believe me and keeps trying. and trying. until i have to pretend to fall asleep so he'll lay the fuck off.

i don't understand girls that say "no" and mean "yes." they probably are just trying to see how much attention you'll give them and how badly you (the pejorative you) want them. probably have low self- esteem and are seeking validation through having sex with you.

something like that.

 
At 3:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

David in DC, I commend your attitude towards one night stands. You are a true ninja. Fuck them once and disapear forever. That's the way it should be done.

 
At 3:20 PM, Blogger Dayngr said...

The bottom line is everyone should say whatever the hell they mean and mean whatever the hell they say. Life would be so much simpler. There might be a few more people pissed off short term but in the long run we'd all be happier.

Also, I'm pretty convinced that we know well before the date is over if we're going to sleep with you. In somce cases, well before the date even begins.

 
At 3:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most women actually mean no when they say it. That is, they realize they're going further than their good girl self wants to so they say "no," but as soon as you stop giving them attention they change their mind. They didn't realize no sex meant no fun. So they say yes. It's the stereotypical devil/angel dilemma.

Also, if we actually like him, the look on a man's face and his mood after we tell him "no" is downright devastating. And we don't want him to hate us, so...

 
At 4:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post. This is pretty much how I feel about this: those women fuck it up for lots of normal ones. I think it's mostly the "slut defense" factor.

FYI, I've never said "no" - I know pretty much within an hour of meeting you whether I want to fuck you or not. And when I do, I go ahead with it - what's the big deal, it's just sex. Sex can mean as much or little as you want it to.

And the rape fantasy is pretty common, I'm sure. What's your view on it? (done it/ want to/would never try/like it/hate it, etc.)?

David, I love your idea! If she wants sex but is playing head games, leave it up to her to resolve her issues and initiate it, or sit there and feel miserable.

And why not fuck a girl crazier than you are? I'd never get laid if all guys lived by that rule!

 
At 4:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

WD 30,

What if the guy is trying to say no like when someone is ramming a sharp nail into his anus?

ANON1

 
At 4:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i just say yes everytime. i'm a huge skank.

 
At 4:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

agree wholeheartedly with Jader. the look of disappointment on the face of the guy is too much for a people pleasing kinda girl to take. especially since the reason we said no in the first place is b/c we like you and dont want you to think we're a slut. just b/c we dont want sex doesn't mean we don't want to continue hooking up. sometimes we realize the only way to continue is to change gears and say yes. fucked up but true in a lot of cases.

 
At 4:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post should be titled "Why you shouldn't sleep with idiots."

 
At 5:29 PM, Blogger I. Ambrosia said...

Try this question before you take her home. "Are you going to let me hit it?" With a sly smile of course. Based on her response you can skip sesame street. ;-)

 
At 5:46 PM, Blogger Virgle Kent said...

Dade,

I kind of just pull it out and see if they'll touch it...

Like "suprise"....

Then I say these magical words.... "the beating will continue till moral improves"...

What girl with such highstandards couldn't find that sexy?

Then they let me hit

duh


But then again I'm already a registerd sex offender (long story involving a goat)

 
At 5:59 PM, Blogger Johnny said...

Dayngr - I think you're talking about people dating for real and Dade is talking about drunken bimbos he took home from the bar.

Jader - I'll have to use the devastating face to my benefit.

IC - yeah, you are nuts. ;)

 
At 6:02 PM, Blogger MonkeyPants said...

Whatever happened to just making out? Why does kissing and touching automatically mean "stick your dick in me"?

Maybe YOU GUYS are the problem, not the girls. Yeah, you do have a point that some girls will play hard to get and say no when eventually they mean yes. After all, you've all made it abundantly clear you don't like us that easy. However, for many of us "no" doesn't mean "roll the fuck over and go to sleep." Why is that the end of night? Because you HAVE to get your rocks off? Christ. How needy for instant-gratification are you?

Doesn't anyone just take it easy or is it all or nothing with you guys?

Ugh. I think I'm about done...

 
At 6:22 PM, Anonymous cedar said...

Ok, this is valid and you have every right to be confused/annoyed in these type of instances. HOWEVER, most date rapes don't go down like that--most date rapes involve chicks who are practically comatose they're so drunk or drugged and guys who fuck them regardless of their level of comprehension or acceptance. Not cool. Not hot either. Who wants to fuck someone who's just laying there?

 
At 6:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cedar, that's true. And despicable. Date rapes also happen when the girl is lucid, but she just doesn't like the guy, but he forces himself on her. Also despicable, obviusly.

Johnny, crazy people are the best in bed!

 
At 6:40 PM, Anonymous Ali said...

Monkeypants, and now, for the sad truth: yes. For most guys, the goal is to get into your pants, until the mission is accomplished, failed, or the goals have changed.

In these situations, you can do that by saying, "I like what we're doing just fine." But you have to communicate that, because yes, men, and not just monkeys, are trying to get into your pants.

Cedar, I'm with you about comatose ladies. I prefer to call it "a fetish for awake and alert girls." Makes it sound hotter.

 
At 7:43 PM, Blogger B-Brod said...

You say, and I agree with you here, that the mixed message is a practical training ground for date rape – She says yes, but means no; so the guy who hears no thinks they always mean yes.

I think we as guys have equal power to train the woman in this situation.

Here’s an idea – why not really stop when a girl says stop, then when/if she changes her mind and decides she really does want it, tell HER no. This will really throw her off her normal pattern.

When she asks why not, tell her she said no, and so that’s it. My guess is she will only try that play once, maybe twice and if she flip-flops more than that, I would say it’s not worth the lay anyway.

The idea here is that if guys keep playing red light green light with girls, the guys are just as to blame as the girl who’s running the traffic light. We allow them to do this.

We should combat the mixed message game by not playing. I don’t mean to go ahead when they say stop, but rather to stop when they say so and NOT start again when they say jump.

 
At 8:59 PM, Blogger Jada said...

The "False No" as you describe shares a page with the "I've never done this before" in the book of Games Women Play that Don't Fool Men. It's so silly. One thing I have heard repeatedly from my past sexual partners that they liked best about me was that I don't hide my desire and I go after what I want. Showing interest and enthusiasm for sex is infinitely more attractive and sexy than playing coy. It will also make up for a lot in terms of appearance or experience. I don't understand why some women do it, but it's sad.

 
At 12:06 AM, Blogger Dayngr said...

Johnny - Excellent point. What ever was I thinking?!

 
At 9:40 AM, Blogger Johnny said...

Monkeypants - there ARE guys who are not just after a lay. When a guy wants a relationship, he goes after the girl with self-respect and standards, not the one who puts out on the first night. Unfortunately there are so many easy bitches it makes it tough on the good girls.

IC - if crazy people are better in bed, you must be the best.

Dayngr - not sarcasm I hope? ;)

 
At 9:44 AM, Blogger Johnny said...

Jada, a woman who knows what she wants and goes for it is very sexy.

 
At 10:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

She may be sexy Johnny but she is also a slut.

 
At 11:13 AM, Anonymous Cotton Mather said...

Ye drunken heathens shall burn in hell!!!!

 
At 11:50 AM, Blogger Manola Blablablanik said...

This kind of ambivalence may come from just being too young to know what you want, how far you're willing to go and most importantly how to express that. Before you ever suck face you should be prepared to stick to your guns.

I agree with David, very mensch-like still to take "no" as no, regardless.

 
At 12:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did not call Jada a slut, I meant women in general who know what they want and go for it.

 
At 1:23 PM, Blogger Jada said...

Sluts need love, too.

 
At 1:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why does no sex mean you roll over and go to sleep?

 
At 1:46 PM, Anonymous Rachel said...

You can completely eliminate this situation if you wait to have sex with someone until you are in a relationship with them rather than screwing random chicks that you meet at the bar.

Many women who go home with guys from the bar have incredibly low self worth and are using the men's desire for them (even if liquor induced) to try and shore up their flagging ego even if for a short while.
If a man makes it clear that he doesn't care one way or the other if he hits it than it makes her feel worthless. Not that she won't feel worthless in the morning if she does let him hit it, but it staves off the guilt and bad feelings for at least a few hours.

Instant gratification often means long term guilt.

 
At 4:24 PM, Blogger White Dade said...

Mini - Not AS sexy, but possible much more useful.

David - Good call. I think I have done that for that exact reason. And, yes, a real hypothetical.

Gen - Those guys are dipshits. Plain and simple.

mm - Okay. Good to remember. But my question is what if you do like the guy and actualyl want him to call you? or are you not the type to fuck a guy you like right when you meet him?

Dayngr - This is more about random hookups than dates, though.

Jader - That was quite educational. thank you.

IC - An hour? I tihnk for most women it's more like 5 minutes. As for the rape fantasy, not something I've done but would be open to definintely.

Anon1 - Suck it up and deal with the pain.

DMBmeg - And your phone number is....

Anon - Does it ever occur to you that sleeping with us right away might be a GOOD idea? Like it lets us know you like us too? Just a thought.

SW - If that were ture I tinhk I may have gotten laid 5 times in my life.

IA - that's just a little too direct for me.

VK - you are one sick fuck.

MPants - Guys don't like just making out. Not past the age of 12 anyway. I'm sure i didn't burst your bubble on that one, though. And, no, I DO like women THAT easy. I hate games. That's just how it is, Mo. And why do you hate me all of a sudden?

Cedar - Yeah, drug induced date rapes are a totally different thing.

Ali - Didn't you do a post on that once? I seem to remember..

Ben - Nice thought. But there is no way in Hell I am ever able to say no when a girl starts doing shit. Nice idea in theory, but I tinhk in practice it'll never work.

Jada - Thank you Jada. I agree with you 100% and you sound like one of the good ones.

Anon1 - NO, she's not. thats the fucking problem is guys like you saying that and then girl don't want to do it becasue they're afraid of that label. There are sluts out there, but it is a totally different animal. Have you read my post on that?

Cotton - Only the Jews.

MB - I tihnk the oyuth thing has a lot to do with it.

Anon - Becasue there is no point in losing sleep at that point.

Rachel - Interesting analysis, but not always the case. I have had more than one relaitonship start form a drunken bar hookup.

 
At 1:35 AM, Blogger Dayngr said...

Johnny - No sarcasm for you dear ;)

 
At 11:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a lot of people have made good point that you are missing.

First off, a girl who doesn't want to have sex may, indeed, not want to be too easy right away. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to kiss and cuddle you. The fact that your dick stays hard if they nibble you is not a girl's fault. It's your fault for thinking she still means yes. You CAN fool around and not have sex every time. It's hard, but couples do it all the time. It's called going on a few dates without fucking. Maybe you've heard of it?

And why do girls say things like "I really want to"? Because they DO. They just don't want to tonight, but they don't want you think they're uptight or not into you. Guys can take things the wrong way.

You really have to start seeing things from another point of view, Dade. It's part of being good in bed. Girls do learn that guys get turned on easily. Guys should learn that girls may be totally attracted to you and not ready to sleep with you yet.

And there is no reason to 'punish' a girl by rolling over the minute she says she can't have intercourse. That's childish. And it makes her think you don't like her.

Guys: Grow up. There are things you can do on the first few dates without intercourse - which means pregnancy scares, vulnerabity, STDs and other things that women have to worry about more than men.

 
At 2:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "No" doesn't need to mean the END of all fun. Like someone else said.. say, "I'm not ready to jump right into sex just yet.. what we're doing is fine". Then he can make his own call on what's next.

Most normal, non-idiotic women mean NO when they say it. It does suck that men have to deal with women who are idiotic, so I do feel bad for you guys and totally get where this post comes from. However, I don't think it contributes to date rape so much as it contribues to men thinking all women are morons.

 
At 3:02 PM, Blogger MonkeyPants said...

WD-
I don't hate you. I think you've just been more bitter and misogynistic towards women lately than usual and it bugs me. Maybe it's your own situation and you just need a hearty bang, but really...

And if I was making out with a guy and he tried to take it farther than I was willing (at that point) and I said no, causing him to roll over and go to sleep... i'd think he was just about the most selfish creep ever. There's nothing wrong with fooling around without going all the way. Why aren't some things worth waiting (another date or two or five) for?

 
At 4:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The person who said "Well, girls should say what they MEAN" is making excuses. If you follow that standard, then WhiteDade should say, "I respect your wish to not have intercourse, but I must officially warn you that I can't continue to kiss, cuddle, or have any sort of contact with you whatsoever because my penis will stay hard and I will believe you are contradicting yourself. I do not think you're a prude or too uptight, but I cannot continue this frolicking."

And you know, I bet he doesn't want to say that. It's not romantic.

 
At 2:48 PM, Blogger Alison Cummins said...

Communicating is about listening too. In the situation described, the women say "I can't." If I know someone well enough to fuck them, then I know them well enough to say "Tell me more." It's not that complicated.

If I say "I can't" I probably mean "You need to use a condom." (Sorry, my verbal skills decrease as I heat up - "I can't" might be all I can manage at that particular instant.) As a woman it's self-evident to me that heterosexual genital intercourse doesn't happen without birth control - and shouldn't happen without STD control. I'm always baffled when straight men in their forties - fathers - act like they don't know where babies come from. Well, I do.

I've figured out by now that no matter how smart and progressive a potential male partner is I *always* have to ask "Do we need to stop by a drugstore on our way home?" Failing that, "The condom stash is in the bottom drawer - I have a selection of brands, so just pick one you like."

This takes a lot of ownership on a woman's part. Ownership of something that isn't entirely hers. Young women might not have this completely down yet. If you want to endear yourself to your next sexual partner, talk to her. And take responsibility for your own fucking condoms without making her spell it out for you as if you were nine.

Your partners are trying to protect themselves against pregnancy and disease. And you're accusing them of being the cause of date rape? I guess we just can't win, can we?

 
At 4:45 PM, Blogger White Dade said...

Alsion - Good points all around, but I am not blaming her at ALL for asking for a condom. In fact, I was using it as a device to show that at that point, she wanted sex. Lke she owuld not ask for a condom if she "couldn't." When a girl says "do you have a condom" it means "I'm ready to have sex now." that was my point in using that phrasage. I hope it clears that up.

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger Alison Cummins said...

You might not be blaming her for asking for a condom. I'm blaming you for not volunteering the condom, for making her ask and not taking responsibility for sharing the burden.

Or at the very least, for not asking if that was the issue.

Really, is it so hard to ask "What's up?" She might not realise you are so linguistically impaired that you can't distinguish between "I can't" and "I don't want to," and I bet she's frustrated that you are showing so much indifference to her (and your) well-being.

Personally, I don't feel very comfortable with a partner who has to be asked. They aren't showing much awareness of anyone's needs.

And now you are using women's frustration with your thoughtlessness to argue that women are the cause of date rape.

I don't think so.

You might want to check out these real live date-rape accounts, by the way. They don't have much to do with being coy.

http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/28/secret-silent-shame/#comments

http://pearlsanddreams.blogspot.com/2006/08/hard-posting-again.html

 

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